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256: Saner Arguments—Discourse vs. Debate with Bob Gower

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When discussing fraught, divisive, or high-stakes issues it's so easy to get defensive, triggered, and hurt—sometimes even doing irreparable damage to relationships we hold dear. Communications pro Bob Gower returns to Pivot to help us understand something crucial before we engage in our next argument: is this discourse or a debate?

He outlines the difference between the two in his fantastic piece, Rules of Engagement: 5 Steps to Better Arguments: "In discourse, the goal is to eventually align. Debate is discourse's more flamboyant cousin where people with opposing views intend to remain that way at the end of the conversation.”

In this wandering conversational stroll, we explore what it means to be a “good person,” when "agree to disagree" does and doesn't work, intent versus impact, when not to "poke the bear," releasing the urge to have an opinion on everything (or enter into an argument with every person in the first place), why Bob shut-down several of his social media profiles, and how he boils this all down into his day-to-day practices and intentions.

As longtime listeners know well by now, awkward is the name of the game for subjects as tricky as these! For intrepid listeners, our hope is that by hearing us work through (in real-time) some of these more challenging aspects of tough conversations, it will give you a chance to explore where you stand and what approach you want to take—knowing there isn't always just one "right" answer.

Resources Mentioned:

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More About Bob Gower

Bob Gower cares deeply about the financial, social, and environmental performance of organizations. He is the author of two books and a sought-after speaker. As a consultant Bob has advised leaders at multinationals, nonprofits, and startups. He holds an MBA in Sustainable Systems and is a certified Positive Psychology Practitioner. He's the author of Agile Business: A Leader’s Guide to Harnessing Complexity, and his latest that he co-authored with his wife Alex, Radical Alignment: How to Have Game-Changing Conversations That Will Transform Your Business and Your Life.

Topics We Cover

  • Losing sleep over a fraught FB post; the medium can be part of the problem

  • Just because you made someone mad doesn’t mean you did anything wrong

  • "Destroying" someone in debate doesn't actually create a more just society

  • Distinction between discourse — talking and really trying to learn — versus debate

  • Diversifying the power structure of society, make better decisions with more diversity

  • "I believe it is our duty to (aggressively at times) counter speech that is causing harm."

  • When this gets us in trouble . . .

  • Singer: "Being a good person is really hard."

  • We're not necessarily responsible for other people's reactions

  • What's true? What's helpful?

  • When "agree to disagree" doesn't work any more

  • Sustainable systems: everything really is connected to everything else

  • Permission not to form an opinion!

  • Cognitive dissonance is a part of growth. "This is a mental state where I come to see the stark difference between how things are and how I think they are — between who I am and who I think I am."

  • Cancel culture: spaces that have been homogenous for a long time, frog in the water metaphor as it relates to complacency, blinders we have on

  • Painful experience of seeing things differently for the first time

  • Intention versus impact

  • Shoulds about what to say, how to be

  • Extending a sense of generosity

  • Morning journaling practice with a goal to be as brutally honest and as intellectually humble as possible

  • When entering an argument, assess: is this discourse or a debate? Detach with love when needed

  • Discourse: arguments where the goal is to eventually align.

  • Debate: "Discourse's more flamboyant cousin;" people with opposing views intend to remain opposed at the end of the conversation.

  • Our words have power. Thich Nhat Hahn, “Words that damage or destroy are not Right Speech.”

  • You don't need to poke every bear!

Check out other episodes of the Pivot Podcast here. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen, and if you enjoy the show I would be very grateful for a rating and/or review! Sign-up for my weekly(ish) #PivotList newsletter to receive curated round-ups of what I’m reading, watching, listening to, and new tools I’m geeking out on.